Monday's Movies

I am not sure what the Allies were thinking when they planned the Hurcan Forest and Ardennes Forest battles.  Hurcan Forest did not have a real objective because it was so difficult to get through, and they did not really need to get to the other side.  Then these poor soldier were sent to the Ardennes Forest to recuperate where it was supposed to be very far from the war.  Without any warning or reinforcements they were fiercely attacked.  What were they thinking?  

This Week's Presentations

I had trouble keeping up with the Battle of Budapest movie, and lack of detailed visuals also made it more difficult for me to understand what happened.  Despite this I was able to learn from discussion with my peers and reading.  The most important part of this battle was that the Germans pushed to fight this part of the war, and this caused them to have more difficulty from the war.  

The most interesting part of the Battle of Seelow Heights was that there were so many casualties for both sides.  This gave the Soviets an advantage because they had many more soldiers than the Germans.  The loss of soldiers was bad for them, but so close to the end of the war made winning the war more important.  With this advantage they were able to push through the war and win.  

Class

The videos that have been shown in class this week have been very helpful to me. I think it is important to hear as many first-hand accounts of the war as possible, and the video makes things much more vivid in general. The first-hand accounts help us to remember and acknowledge the importance of events that sometimes don't get more than a glance, such as the battle of the Herken Forest.

The Donald Duck propaganda was also very interesting. Watching things like this from the WWII era make me wonder. I may just not be noticing, but why don't we see more obvious and outright forms of propaganda about war today?

Presentations

Monday

Operation Varsity was in March of '45 and was the Allied plan to get the army over the Rhine River. It was the airborne phase of OPERATION PLUNDER. It was considered the most successful airborne op of the war. In addition, it is the most concentrated drop in history and the largest single airborne drop. It was the only time Germany was invaded by air.

Wednesday

The Battle of Budapest was between the Soviets and the Germans. The 1st week consisted of uncoordinated attacks from all directions. It was part of Operation Margarethe and was the bloodiest since Stalingrad. Soviets sustained from 100,000-160,000 casualties.

General Class

I enjoyed the movies that went along with class this week; it is always best to get the picture from those who were actually there. Especially the segments on the battle of the Herken Forest. I had never heard of it until now, and well, it seems that's the case because, as Churchill said, the winners write the history books and that battle didn't go too well for the winners. It seems like a lot of our troops got chewed up in there, what with it being a defensive dreamland/offensive nightmare to begin with, and the Germans adding artificial enhancements to the already formidable natural defenses of the terrain. As was mentioned in class, the Germans were very good defenders, but towards the end of the war they simply didn't have the reserves to conduct mobile defenses as Model had done back east in Russia during the winter of 41 and so forth. But give them a chance to neutralize the American airpower and armored mobility, and they were very capable of exacting a high toll on those sent against them. It seems that many of Germany's impressive tactical victories involved forests. Ardennes, 1940, Herken Forest, etc. Oh, and I also enjoyed the abbreviated class length. That was a nice bonus.

The Week

I really liked watching the videos during the week. It gave you a perspective into what the troops were going through during the war and the environment they were living in. The cartoons were also entertaining. They were a little disturbing through because Donald Duck was heiling Hitler. I don't see how it won any awards though, but times were different then. The battles seemed to be turning around. The americans not going after Berlin was fine by me. Not taking unnecassary loses was a smart move. Lets just let the other countries take all the loses. They still played a crucial role though in going south and destroying the pockets of resistence. They both moved swiftly and the war ended shortly there after. Did this boost Trumans standings politically? Did he recieve a lot of the credit for the war ending so fast or did the Russians?

I find it interesting how the US perspective about the Soviets changed so much following the war. During the war we were allies against the Nazis, yes perhaps because they were the lesser evil but I think our country's ideology is flawed since following the war we condemed all that had to do with the Soviets during the Cold War.

Donald Duck

Donald duck and disney are great outlets for propaganda, but even better to show different perspectives of what is happening in the war and the psychology behind the war without showing the side of death. We already know that war brings death, therefore with Disney productions I feel that since it is mainly for kids it has to be highly psychological because how else do you reach a viewer in such a complex subject of how wars start, and as adults watching this we pick up on the same overall meanings plus more for the fact that we have been exposed to more. I mean of course as adults we pick up on all of the sexual connotations that disney throws in like the palm trees going up as hitler rides off on the horse with his new german princess and the final line saying" that she will saddle up on him" . Then the overall connotation to the book mein kampf, and also the seen of the rabbit getting eaten by the wolf, again all highly psychological, but at the same time highly intellectual and propagandistic. Disney is great!

Seelow Heights

It is kind of interesting to think of what may have come of the war had the Soviets not "won" the battle. It was mentioned that the US and British sides felt that they would rather use the Soviets to take out Berlin. But I also understood that part of it had to due with the fact that they had been fighting in the war for so long that they deserved the claim of taking out the city. It kind of makes me wonder then if they were not able to move forward would they have still gotten the nod for Berlin. Obviously the battle wouldnt have taken place for a while later, but did the claim of victory change the perspective of what the Soviets were capable of. And did this battle further prove that they were going to give anything to take out the Nazis.

presentations

Operation Varsity was an interesting presentation because of the number of records the battle set for the airborne but it is real unknown today. This battle was a larger assault then D-Day and cost three times the number of lives but is all but forgotten. I also find it interesting that a little over a thousand killed in this jump of 30K+ would make the allies cancel all future jumps because of the causalities. That is not saying the men’s lives were not important but the Allies couldn’t stomach them but would then send men into battle for a piece of land that was not important. Lastly, it was mentioned that someone of Ike’s staff give the battle plan to the Germans. I was wondering if anybody knows if this was the only case or were their more and was the individual ever discovered?

The presentation on Budapest has been the most unique presentation to date. The battle I feel shows just how bad the situation for Germany had become. Germany had to rush in to take control of the country to avoid losing territory to the Soviets without a fight because their ally wanted to surrender. It was also interesting in the way the Russia used psychological warfare in the city against the Germans. I just thought it is only something that has come into use in modern times. This battle also shows that Hitler decision to always stay and fight probably helped end the war sooner. This is seen in the attempted break out where only 700 Germans survived the attempt and over 100k were taken prisoner in the city’s capture. One has to wonder if Hitler would have let his generals make tactical withdrawals if the war would have turned out differently?

The battle of Seelow Heights presentation showed that it was the beginning of the end for Germany and Hitler. It showed that the Germans could do little in the way of stopping the Russian advance and were only buying time. However, I still think the Russians had little if any regard for the lives of the common foot soldier. It seems to me that most battles they won were by numbers alone not better tactics.

video

One of the videos this week talked about the Battle of Hurtgen Forest. This was the first time I heard of this battle and after the video and brief discussion about the battle; I wondered why did America go into the forest in the first place? It seems funny to me that the Americans would cancel future jumps because of the number of causalities but would then turn around and send men to battle for a piece of terrain that was not needed. So far, we have seen several battles like this that historians debate the purpose or need for the battle. While, historians have the benefit of hindsight, why did the professional military minds not see the terrain was not needed in the first place? Finally, I thought the cartoon about Donald Duck was funny but showed a good point. It showed propaganda was heavily used by sides before and during the war and could help explain why some of the German people did not see any problems with Hitler until is was too late.

Presentations

Seelow Heights
It is always interesting to study the endgame section of any war, and WWII is no different. The Russians by this time were hardened after years of battle with the Wermacht, and had gained much hard-won experience on the Eastern Front. The Germans too had learned many lessons from the Russians, also the hard way. But the difference is that the Russian economy was now tooling along at a war pace that even the US would have had to step it up a little to match, while Germany's own economy was starting to crumble under the onslaught of the Combined Bomber Offensive. Seelow heights was the battle Germany wanted to fight but couldn't really, and the battle the Russians would have been ecstatic to avoid, but knew that was impossible. One last clash of the armies of Germany and the Soviet Union was needed before the Soviets could begin the dirty job of mopping up resistance among the rest of the front (random Italian and Romanian units) and crushing/subduing the city of Berlin. Both sides through what they had into Seelow Heights, and though with the weaker position, the Russians had more to throw.

Operation VARSITY
I think someone else mentioned how the Allies tended to come up with grand operations that tended to go off badly. And this is true to the most part. From Dieppe to Market Garden, a series of notable failures were racked up by the Allies. But we must not overlook the successes that came along with the disappointments. Most notable of course is Operation OverLord. Normandy was the turning point of the war on mainland Europe. And even though some things did go wrong with Operation VARTIY and PLUNDER, they did accomplish their objectives, and tied down more German troops in the area. As the Germans discovered in Russia, you can't defend everywhere at once.

Battle of Budapest
It has been mentioned that what a shame that Hungary had to serve as a pawn between the Soviets and the Nazis. But unfortunately, that is the problem with their geography. Much as Poland never developed into the world power it may have because it was conveniently situated between Russia and Germany, the two big power houses in Eastern Europe. I thought the battle of Budapest itself was interesting, the Germans seemed determined to hold the city though I'd imagine that they could have withdrawn to more defensible positions closer to their supply lines. But they stuck it out, and even tried to cut their forces out of the encirclement, which didn't quite work out. But yes, Hungary was in a bad situation either way. You know they rebelled against their new masters the Soviets in the '50s, and the rest of the "free world" just watched as they were brutally crushed by the Red army. Alas.

Presentation: Battle of Seelow Heights

It is apparent that this was a must win battle for the Russian army against the Germans.  It is interesting to note that although Russia suffered the heaviest casualty loss of 33,000 as compared to Germany, which suffered only 12,000 casualties, they were able to claim a victory.

Presentation: The Battle of Budapest:

I thought the artwork and slide show were really creative and interesting to watch.  How sad to think that Hungary had to be the pawn between Russia and Germany.  The death tolls never cease to amaze me – 40,000 Hungarians, mostly those who were Jewish, were killed and that was only one group that suffered during this battle that raged on for a year or more.  

U.S. film in foreign hands

Is there anyway that Axis powers such as Germany or Japan would have ever had access to U.S. media such as the Donald Duck cartoon? I just wonder because although he has never commented on it I'm sure Kim Jong Il has seen 'Team America', or at least knows about it as he had it banned. Do you think Disney would have been so blatantly disrespectful of all the axis leaders if he thought they would ever see his cartoon? Do you think making fun of an enemy, even in cartoon form, could result in a much more aggressive attack against the U.S. (during WWII or modern day)?
There's obviously no right or wrong answer... these are just questions that popped into my head while thinking about the cartoon.

Presentation: Operation Varsity

I found the detailed information about this operation very interesting, such as:  this was the last time the Allies used gliders on the opposing forces; gliders were released from a record 2,500 feet; this was the only time Germany invaded from the air; this was the most successful Allied air strike during the war; and, 3,000 German POWs were taken the first day.  Even though there was battle after battle, it never ceases to amaze me how each one has a “first” event of the war.

Until the presentations, I was not familiar with the battle fought in the Hurtgen Forest.  How hard it must have been to fight for your life in a place that was dense, dark, and foggy and home to trees that grew to 100 feet, with only four feet between them.  In addition, solders were instructed to drop things behind them as a clue to their path.  The forest cut off any advantages the Americans might have had, such as air support and tank mobility.

My Deep Thoughts on the Presentations

Operation Varsity - The thing I found most interesting is how often the Allies think they have a great plan and it always seems to backfire on them. The example from this presentation was their use of smoke screens that hindered them finding drop zones.

Seelow Heights - I was just shocked my the sheer numbers the Russians were willing to lose in order to "win" the battle. I think I've mentioned this before but how much quicker would the war have been over and how many deaths could have been prevented if the Soviets had used just a little more military strategy rather than just sending every male with a gun into a fire fight and hoping it all came down to a numbers game.

Battle of Budapest - I think I saw another comment on this but I was most interested in the aspect of the psychological warfare that was used. I'd be interested to hear more about this not only from this battle but in the war overall. Maybe a good topic to recommend to someone taking the class next semester.

Herken forest

This was an unbelievable military event. I am curious to know why this was ever done, it was a lose/lose situation for the U.S. There was no major goal that could be achieved. It seems like some officer got drunk one night and came up with a "great idea." With nothing to gain why did U.S. commanders put so many lives in danger?

presentations

The presentations from this week were very informative. I enjoyed learning about Operation Varsity and seeing how everything is beginning to lead to the end of the war. It amazes me how just one small decision can change the entire war. As I have studied the allies capture of the bridge at Remagen, the impact that one decision can have has been really evident.
The time the allies spent in the forest in SE Germany was pretty intense. I can see why so many men struggled during this time. It must have been terrifying being in that forest and not having any control over what was happening.
It was mentioned that during the battle of Budapest psychological warfare was used more often. What types of psychological warfare were used? Were these methods very effective? Did both sides utilize them?

Hurtgen Forest

it seems very foolish that the Americans would try to advance through a forest that as the video said was composed of 100 foot trees that were in some places only 4 feet apart. Even more foolish is that they tried to go through a forest that was largely planted and maintained by the Germans with pre-constructed defensive positions originally meant to guard the Roer River dams from a land strike (i'm a little surprised the video didn't mention that) and once they got beyond that, they could have been flooded out of the valley

Disney Propaganda??

Was even necessary for Disney to create all this propaganda for the government?  Wasn't obvious to the U.S. citizens of the atrocities and evilness of Germany and Japan prior to the ending of the war?  Wasn't their detailed reports in the newspapers of some of the atrocities committed by both nations prior to the war?  It seems to me that this was kind of superfluous to the overall war effort and it created a way for people at Disney to avoid frontline service by supporting the war effort through the excuse of propaganda.

Operation Varsity

I was unaware of the magnitude of the use of airborne forces in the crossing of the Rhine region. I knew that the Allies used airborne forces but I did not know that their participation here was so affective. I also did not know that they faced such oppostion. They were in a very sticky situation when they hit the earth knowing that the Germans had already aimed their guns at their own drop zone.
Despite the Germans being well prepared for the Allied airborne arrival, they perservered by making this one of the more successful airborne operations of the entire war. They were fortunate to have been relived by friendly forces so soon. Much unlike the British airborne forces at Arnhem in the Market Garden Campaign.

Nazi Caricacature

It amazed me that the U.S. devised such affective caricatures at their Nazi enemies. You always think that the propoganda was only a tool used by the Axis. This film certainly proved otherwise to myself. The specificis of the film showed me how good it was because their were acurate generalizations that I feel most people would be able to learn easily. Regardless, I think it was a good idea for the U.S. to create propoganda of their own.

Operation Varsity

I found this Operation interesting. Even though someone spilled the beans on our invasion, the allied troops were still able to come out on top thanks to the landing technique. Also, the fact that the airborne troops and land were able to work together so well did great thin0gs in our favor. Whether that cooperation was a fluke or not, it still enabled the allies to cancel out other Operations due to the great success.

Seelow Heights and Battle of Budapest

Great job on both presentations today. They were very insightful along with creative. Beginning with Seelow Heights, I find it interesting how the Soviets pushed through regardless of how many casualties lost. Someone was in it to win, huh? Also, I feel like as American people we tend to focus on our wins. It is good to know that it was not just our "super-power" country that helped win the war. Thanks Soviet Union!
As far as the Battle of Budapest....I loved the art work and slide show. It kept my attention the entire time which is difficult to do so early. Along with the Battle of Seelow Heights, I also find it crazy that no matter how physically and psychologically difficult the battle was on the Soviet Union they were still able to come out on top.

Seelow Heights

I thought the presentations today were both wonderful but I was really intrigued by the presentation of Seelow Heights. I thought it was interesting to see the two different theaters in Europe and how close they were to Berlin. Also I always thought that the Soviet Union was careless and did not care about how many men died. But I never looked at it as just wanting this war to end. The battle by itself seemed to be pretty tough and every inch was fought for. I was wondering during the presentation though what the German fortifications were like. Were they very strong or just huge cement barriers and fortifications? Also at this time did Hitler or his staff think they could get out of this or did they think they were doomed? Overall it was a great presentation though.

Donald Duck Cartoon

I found the Donald Duck cartoon to be very funny. It is interesting what goes on during war time. I like how they had a Japanese and Itailian person in the Nazi band. The picture they were trying to portray is very interesting and to think that Walt Disney made the cartoon adds to it. I wonder how well this cartoon worked. Did people want to go out and fight the Nazis after watching this cartoon? Why doesn't the U.S. government make movies like this now for the war in Iraq?

Seelow Heights

We talked in class about the large number of Soviets that died and I was just wondering if they had to take the Seelow Heights or if they could have gone around. It may have taken longer but they would not have lost as many men. I was just wondering if the Soviets wanted to end the war quickly and going through Seelow Heights was the way to do it or if they could have done it another way. Did Seelow Heights have to be taken to take Germany?

Operation Varsity

This operation seemed kind of daring to try and pull off. It seems the allies were looking for anyway to end the war and as quickly as possible. Everything worked out well and it did help end the war. It just seems like such a massive invasion by air. Tons of planning must have went into getting this plan to work. I find it amazing that it worked as well as it did.

Class 4/7

It was amazing to listen to the woman from "The War" video talking about how everyone back home was pulling for the troops who were surrounded at Bastogne - it was evident that people in the States had a fairly good idea how dire the situation had become. What a relief it must have been to hear that the Allies were finally able to get them food and supplies and ammunition.

The Operation Varsity presentation was well done - I especially enjoyed hearing the "firsts" of this battle - such as the quick release parachute and the size of the dropzone.

Operation Varsity Presentation 4/7

Listening to this presentation I was really impressed with the fact that the Allies' paratroopers were so successful. Visability in the air caused difficulties, and when the paratroopers got on the ground they were outnumbered. Despite the difficulties that they had, they were able to pull off this task. I wonder what reasons caused the commanders to keep going with the operation when it was difficult. An informant had given away their plans and left them without the advantage of surprise. I think that this really shows what America could do if they put thier mind to it.



On the other hand, the German plans to defeat the Allies in the air were not going smoothly either. They could not anticipate the paratrooper's landings like they had wanted to. This also caused problems for their comanders when confusion set in. Was this success for the Allies planned or just luck? Looking at the facts it did not seem that they would have an easy success.